Discussion:
the way forward
Lodewijk
2011-02-25 21:09:19 UTC
Permalink
Dear all,

I apologize on beforehand if I come across rude and insensitive in this
email. I do however feel the need to be super clear about this important
topic and do not want to fuzzify that with cuddling words.

I am very sorry to realize that since Frankfurt, we have not been able to
hang on to our optimistic agenda setting. We planned summer 2010 for an
inclusive process, involving people and allowing for input with a gradual
process. Unfortunately, for many reasons that are not helpful to discuss,
there was no real involvement until Frankfurt from the chapters or real life
community outside the working group to think about what this movement should
be shaped like.

After Frankfurt, people had unexpected time commitment issues, which can't
really be helped. It took somewhat longer to get the matrix out, and as
expected (considering the complexity) there was not a huge amount of
feedback. Now also the New Models email has been delayed.

In todays irc meeting with 4 participants from this mailing list it was
apparently decided that things are not going well and that we should leave
the agreed path. Jon apparently had a discussion with Arne, and I understand
that the path forward now would be to start writing a draft of a charter and
publish that next week. I would like to take this opportunity to explain why
I think that is the wrong way to go - because clearly I did not come across
in the IRC meeting. If everybody feels this is the way to go I will submit
to that of course.

The charter is our final goal - a piece of text that every single
organization in our movement can and will agree upon. This is a task that
should not be taken lightly and for granted - this will be very very hard.
It will be possible to make compromizes up to 50 or 75% of the organizations
to agree, but to have such a vast supermajority requires more. My feeling is
and has always been that people need to feel owner of the problem to be able
to allow solutions to become effective. They need to understand what we try
to fix before they can accept that the situation might have to change.
Otherwise we will not get further than describing the status quo. And I
think at least in Frankfurt we all agreed that would not be a Good Thing.

To have people feel owner of the problem, they need to be actively involved
in discussions. This is what currently is not happening. We agreed on a time
path with several emails to be sent out with respect to tough topics - this
would have made people aware of the needs, and perhaps involved them in the
discussion. Skipping this step now and just start drafting in our corner (or
even on meta) means that we could just as well not have had a process at all
- because it would basically be exactly where we were in August 2009 in
Buenos Aires - a bunch of people came up with a draft. The only difference
would be that we spent this time a lot of effort in setting up a good
process - which we then ignored.

Such a draft can be received in a few ways. It can be plainly ignored by
most organizations because they don't see the importance or relevance to
their situation. When it gets serious about signing, these people will
finally wake up and see all the problems and bureaucracy it will cause - and
they don't feel owner. Therefore they will not object to voting against it
and therefore making it a failure. Another option is that people will
protest on all the details that they don't like. You probably have seen
enough discussions on foundation-l to imagine such a situation. After all,
it is an external document, that is being put forward. They don't feel the
need for it, they don't see the issues. And a final option is that things
will just remain descriptive of the status quo. Then we will have to have
these exact discussions which we set up this process and working group for,
for fundraising (Barry is already doing that even) and other topics which
are not clearly defined.

In my opinion the only way forward is to involve people. And we cannot do
that just by the few hours that Austin can spend on this - as a group we
need to reach out to the people we know, we need to spark discussions and
see where they go. That is only possible if we invest time into it. If we do
not depend just on the single person who was in charge. Also, I hope that
Jon and Austin can be more direct in describing what still has to happen,
and who needs to do what. And are you not able to make a committed time
commitment? Sure, that can happen and I will not see you any less for it -
but please tell us as soon as you realize it so that other people can help
out.

Best regards,

Lodewijk
Alice Wiegand
2011-02-25 22:24:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

this is not a reply to Lodewijk, only something that gets into my mind
today, espacially after some expressions of disappointment. And to
make it clear: I am disappointed, too.

I am one of those people Lodewijk mentioned, who are overloaded with
work these days. And I really have a problem which can be described as
the dilemma of pulled and pushed information. I really didn't realize
that there was some important work on the charter draft. And I didn't
realize the interesting group-thoughts on meta. Not because I am not
interested but because I just cannot collect everything everywhere.
So please, please, please: Just a short notice on this list if
something is happening where you (and this "you" is everyone doing
something in the mr-area) expect the help from us, the rest of this
group.

And what I strongly recommend: Ask here for support for the charter
first, share your thoughts on the timeline and your ideas of pushing
things forward. It is ok to discuss it and openly talk about the
delays. It was somehow confusing to hear in the IRC about moving the
draft to meta before we have any discussion here. We all should try to
save something from the cooperation and engagement we experienced in
Frankfurt, but perhaps we need a nudge sometimes and a broad hint as
often as possible ;)

Is this the place to start the work on the charter:
http://movementroles.wikimedia.org/wiki/Charter ?

Best regards, Alice.
Jon Huggett
2011-02-27 09:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Hi Alice

Great to see you on the chat this weekend.

Yes, there is important work to do on the draft charter. In Frankfurt, we said that we wanted to put a draft onto meta on Mar 10. Between now and then we only have left one IRC chat - this Friday at 1100. It would be great if you (and everyone else) can help edit the draft, and if we can discuss on Friday any points of contention that are arising.

And yes, you have the right place: http://movementroles.wikimedia.org/wiki/Charter

Best regards

Jon
Jon Huggett
+44-795-278-0688
+1-415-465-2700
jon-***@public.gmane.org
www.huggett.com
Skype jon.huggett
Post by Alice Wiegand
Hi,
this is not a reply to Lodewijk, only something that gets into my mind
today, espacially after some expressions of disappointment. And to
make it clear: I am disappointed, too.
I am one of those people Lodewijk mentioned, who are overloaded with
work these days. And I really have a problem which can be described as
the dilemma of pulled and pushed information. I really didn't realize
that there was some important work on the charter draft. And I didn't
realize the interesting group-thoughts on meta. Not because I am not
interested but because I just cannot collect everything everywhere.
So please, please, please: Just a short notice on this list if
something is happening where you (and this "you" is everyone doing
something in the mr-area) expect the help from us, the rest of this
group.
And what I strongly recommend: Ask here for support for the charter
first, share your thoughts on the timeline and your ideas of pushing
things forward. It is ok to discuss it and openly talk about the
delays. It was somehow confusing to hear in the IRC about moving the
draft to meta before we have any discussion here. We all should try to
save something from the cooperation and engagement we experienced in
Frankfurt, but perhaps we need a nudge sometimes and a broad hint as
often as possible ;)
http://movementroles.wikimedia.org/wiki/Charter ?
Best regards, Alice.
_______________________________________________
Movementroles mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/movementroles
Jon Huggett
2011-02-27 10:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Dear Lodewijk

Thanks for your thoughts. I think we are all concerned that we are falling behind the ambitious plan set in Frankfurt.

A practical question for you. In Frankfurt we set the date of March 3 to put on meta our thoughts on "finances, flow of money", with you as the lead for this effort.[1] Would you like to discuss this on the chat on Friday, March 4?

Either way, could let us know, or edit the agenda?[2]

Cheers

Jon

[1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/2011-01-29/notes#Next_steps
[2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/Working_group_meeting_2011-3-4

Jon Huggett
+44-795-278-0688
+1-415-465-2700
jon-***@public.gmane.org
www.huggett.com
Skype jon.huggett
Post by Lodewijk
Dear all,
I apologize on beforehand if I come across rude and insensitive in this email. I do however feel the need to be super clear about this important topic and do not want to fuzzify that with cuddling words.
I am very sorry to realize that since Frankfurt, we have not been able to hang on to our optimistic agenda setting. We planned summer 2010 for an inclusive process, involving people and allowing for input with a gradual process. Unfortunately, for many reasons that are not helpful to discuss, there was no real involvement until Frankfurt from the chapters or real life community outside the working group to think about what this movement should be shaped like.
After Frankfurt, people had unexpected time commitment issues, which can't really be helped. It took somewhat longer to get the matrix out, and as expected (considering the complexity) there was not a huge amount of feedback. Now also the New Models email has been delayed.
In todays irc meeting with 4 participants from this mailing list it was apparently decided that things are not going well and that we should leave the agreed path. Jon apparently had a discussion with Arne, and I understand that the path forward now would be to start writing a draft of a charter and publish that next week. I would like to take this opportunity to explain why I think that is the wrong way to go - because clearly I did not come across in the IRC meeting. If everybody feels this is the way to go I will submit to that of course.
The charter is our final goal - a piece of text that every single organization in our movement can and will agree upon. This is a task that should not be taken lightly and for granted - this will be very very hard. It will be possible to make compromizes up to 50 or 75% of the organizations to agree, but to have such a vast supermajority requires more. My feeling is and has always been that people need to feel owner of the problem to be able to allow solutions to become effective. They need to understand what we try to fix before they can accept that the situation might have to change. Otherwise we will not get further than describing the status quo. And I think at least in Frankfurt we all agreed that would not be a Good Thing.
To have people feel owner of the problem, they need to be actively involved in discussions. This is what currently is not happening. We agreed on a time path with several emails to be sent out with respect to tough topics - this would have made people aware of the needs, and perhaps involved them in the discussion. Skipping this step now and just start drafting in our corner (or even on meta) means that we could just as well not have had a process at all - because it would basically be exactly where we were in August 2009 in Buenos Aires - a bunch of people came up with a draft. The only difference would be that we spent this time a lot of effort in setting up a good process - which we then ignored.
Such a draft can be received in a few ways. It can be plainly ignored by most organizations because they don't see the importance or relevance to their situation. When it gets serious about signing, these people will finally wake up and see all the problems and bureaucracy it will cause - and they don't feel owner. Therefore they will not object to voting against it and therefore making it a failure. Another option is that people will protest on all the details that they don't like. You probably have seen enough discussions on foundation-l to imagine such a situation. After all, it is an external document, that is being put forward. They don't feel the need for it, they don't see the issues. And a final option is that things will just remain descriptive of the status quo. Then we will have to have these exact discussions which we set up this process and working group for, for fundraising (Barry is already doing that even) and other topics which are not clearly defined.
In my opinion the only way forward is to involve people. And we cannot do that just by the few hours that Austin can spend on this - as a group we need to reach out to the people we know, we need to spark discussions and see where they go. That is only possible if we invest time into it. If we do not depend just on the single person who was in charge. Also, I hope that Jon and Austin can be more direct in describing what still has to happen, and who needs to do what. And are you not able to make a committed time commitment? Sure, that can happen and I will not see you any less for it - but please tell us as soon as you realize it so that other people can help out.
Best regards,
Lodewijk
_______________________________________________
Movementroles mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/movementroles
Lodewijk
2011-02-27 10:11:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jon,

I was hoping first for a little more input on my email from members of this
group before I continue. It is quite relevant whether we want to drop the
discussions and move to a draft or first have an (extra) attempt to actually
involve and make aware the group. If we choose for the first, I see no
relevance for me to spend time on this.

It is also for the Flow of the Money discussion quite unfortunate that Barry
already came forward with his proposals (although I can imagine that there
are different time schedules to keep in mind) because this is about a very
related topic and his proposal set the tone quite a lot - leaving little
room to wiggle.

With kind regards

Lodewijk
Post by Jon Huggett
Dear Lodewijk
Thanks for your thoughts. I think we are all concerned that we are falling
behind the ambitious plan set in Frankfurt.
A practical question for you. In Frankfurt we set the date of March 3 to
put on meta our thoughts on "finances, flow of money", with you as the lead
for this effort.[1] Would you like to discuss this on the chat on Friday,
March 4?
Either way, could let us know, or edit the agenda?[2]
Cheers
Jon
[1]
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/2011-01-29/notes#Next_steps
[2]
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/Working_group_meeting_2011-3-4
*Jon Huggett*
+44-795-278-0688
+1-415-465-2700
*www.huggett.com*
Skype jon.huggett
Dear all,
I apologize on beforehand if I come across rude and insensitive in this
email. I do however feel the need to be super clear about this important
topic and do not want to fuzzify that with cuddling words.
I am very sorry to realize that since Frankfurt, we have not been able to
hang on to our optimistic agenda setting. We planned summer 2010 for an
inclusive process, involving people and allowing for input with a gradual
process. Unfortunately, for many reasons that are not helpful to discuss,
there was no real involvement until Frankfurt from the chapters or real life
community outside the working group to think about what this movement should
be shaped like.
After Frankfurt, people had unexpected time commitment issues, which can't
really be helped. It took somewhat longer to get the matrix out, and as
expected (considering the complexity) there was not a huge amount of
feedback. Now also the New Models email has been delayed.
In todays irc meeting with 4 participants from this mailing list it was
apparently decided that things are not going well and that we should leave
the agreed path. Jon apparently had a discussion with Arne, and I understand
that the path forward now would be to start writing a draft of a charter and
publish that next week. I would like to take this opportunity to explain why
I think that is the wrong way to go - because clearly I did not come across
in the IRC meeting. If everybody feels this is the way to go I will submit
to that of course.
The charter is our final goal - a piece of text that every single
organization in our movement can and will agree upon. This is a task that
should not be taken lightly and for granted - this will be very very hard.
It will be possible to make compromizes up to 50 or 75% of the organizations
to agree, but to have such a vast supermajority requires more. My feeling is
and has always been that people need to feel owner of the problem to be able
to allow solutions to become effective. They need to understand what we try
to fix before they can accept that the situation might have to change.
Otherwise we will not get further than describing the status quo. And I
think at least in Frankfurt we all agreed that would not be a Good Thing.
To have people feel owner of the problem, they need to be actively involved
in discussions. This is what currently is not happening. We agreed on a time
path with several emails to be sent out with respect to tough topics - this
would have made people aware of the needs, and perhaps involved them in the
discussion. Skipping this step now and just start drafting in our corner (or
even on meta) means that we could just as well not have had a process at all
- because it would basically be exactly where we were in August 2009 in
Buenos Aires - a bunch of people came up with a draft. The only difference
would be that we spent this time a lot of effort in setting up a good
process - which we then ignored.
Such a draft can be received in a few ways. It can be plainly ignored by
most organizations because they don't see the importance or relevance to
their situation. When it gets serious about signing, these people will
finally wake up and see all the problems and bureaucracy it will cause - and
they don't feel owner. Therefore they will not object to voting against it
and therefore making it a failure. Another option is that people will
protest on all the details that they don't like. You probably have seen
enough discussions on foundation-l to imagine such a situation. After all,
it is an external document, that is being put forward. They don't feel the
need for it, they don't see the issues. And a final option is that things
will just remain descriptive of the status quo. Then we will have to have
these exact discussions which we set up this process and working group for,
for fundraising (Barry is already doing that even) and other topics which
are not clearly defined.
In my opinion the only way forward is to involve people. And we cannot do
that just by the few hours that Austin can spend on this - as a group we
need to reach out to the people we know, we need to spark discussions and
see where they go. That is only possible if we invest time into it. If we do
not depend just on the single person who was in charge. Also, I hope that
Jon and Austin can be more direct in describing what still has to happen,
and who needs to do what. And are you not able to make a committed time
commitment? Sure, that can happen and I will not see you any less for it -
but please tell us as soon as you realize it so that other people can help
out.
Best regards,
Lodewijk
_______________________________________________
Movementroles mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/movementroles
_______________________________________________
Movementroles mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/movementroles
Barry Newstead
2011-03-01 01:04:46 UTC
Permalink
Hi Lodewijk,
Post by Lodewijk
Hi Jon,
I was hoping first for a little more input on my email from members of
this group before I continue. It is quite relevant whether we want to
drop the discussions and move to a draft or first have an (extra)
attempt to actually involve and make aware the group. If we choose for
the first, I see no relevance for me to spend time on this.
It is also for the Flow of the Money discussion quite unfortunate that
Barry already came forward with his proposals (although I can imagine
that there are different time schedules to keep in mind) because this
is about a very related topic and his proposal set the tone quite a
lot - leaving little room to wiggle.
I had mentioned in Frankfurt the point that there are issues that need
to be taken up outside of the MR process in the short term. It would not
be practical to wait on the MR process to end in order to create a FR
agreement for 2011/12. IMO the conversation being had on the agreement
is a good one and serves the MR process well. I'd recommend that the MR
Money discussion build from the agreement discussion. Note: the FR
agreement draft is not /Barry's proposal./ It is the WMF's proposal.
Post by Lodewijk
With kind regards
Lodewijk
Dear Lodewijk
Thanks for your thoughts. I think we are all concerned that we
are falling behind the ambitious plan set in Frankfurt.
A practical question for you. In Frankfurt we set the date of
March 3 to put on meta our thoughts on "finances, flow of money",
with you as the lead for this effort.[1] Would you like to
discuss this on the chat on Friday, March 4?
Either way, could let us know, or edit the agenda?[2]
Cheers
Jon
[1]
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/2011-01-29/notes#Next_steps
[2]
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/Working_group_meeting_2011-3-4
*Jon Huggett*
+44-795-278-0688
+1-415-465-2700
_www.huggett.com_
Skype jon.huggett
Post by Lodewijk
Dear all,
I apologize on beforehand if I come across rude and insensitive
in this email. I do however feel the need to be super clear about
this important topic and do not want to fuzzify that with
cuddling words.
I am very sorry to realize that since Frankfurt, we have not been
able to hang on to our optimistic agenda setting. We planned
summer 2010 for an inclusive process, involving people and
allowing for input with a gradual process. Unfortunately, for
many reasons that are not helpful to discuss, there was no real
involvement until Frankfurt from the chapters or real life
community outside the working group to think about what this
movement should be shaped like.
After Frankfurt, people had unexpected time commitment issues,
which can't really be helped. It took somewhat longer to get the
matrix out, and as expected (considering the complexity) there
was not a huge amount of feedback. Now also the New Models email
has been delayed.
In todays irc meeting with 4 participants from this mailing list
it was apparently decided that things are not going well and that
we should leave the agreed path. Jon apparently had a discussion
with Arne, and I understand that the path forward now would be to
start writing a draft of a charter and publish that next week. I
would like to take this opportunity to explain why I think that
is the wrong way to go - because clearly I did not come across in
the IRC meeting. If everybody feels this is the way to go I will
submit to that of course.
The charter is our final goal - a piece of text that every single
organization in our movement can and will agree upon. This is a
task that should not be taken lightly and for granted - this will
be very very hard. It will be possible to make compromizes up to
50 or 75% of the organizations to agree, but to have such a vast
supermajority requires more. My feeling is and has always been
that people need to feel owner of the problem to be able to allow
solutions to become effective. They need to understand what we
try to fix before they can accept that the situation might have
to change. Otherwise we will not get further than describing the
status quo. And I think at least in Frankfurt we all agreed that
would not be a Good Thing.
To have people feel owner of the problem, they need to be
actively involved in discussions. This is what currently is not
happening. We agreed on a time path with several emails to be
sent out with respect to tough topics - this would have made
people aware of the needs, and perhaps involved them in the
discussion. Skipping this step now and just start drafting in our
corner (or even on meta) means that we could just as well not
have had a process at all - because it would basically be exactly
where we were in August 2009 in Buenos Aires - a bunch of people
came up with a draft. The only difference would be that we spent
this time a lot of effort in setting up a good process - which we
then ignored.
Such a draft can be received in a few ways. It can be plainly
ignored by most organizations because they don't see the
importance or relevance to their situation. When it gets serious
about signing, these people will finally wake up and see all the
problems and bureaucracy it will cause - and they don't feel
owner. Therefore they will not object to voting against it and
therefore making it a failure. Another option is that people will
protest on all the details that they don't like. You probably
have seen enough discussions on foundation-l to imagine such a
situation. After all, it is an external document, that is being
put forward. They don't feel the need for it, they don't see the
issues. And a final option is that things will just remain
descriptive of the status quo. Then we will have to have these
exact discussions which we set up this process and working group
for, for fundraising (Barry is already doing that even) and other
topics which are not clearly defined.
In my opinion the only way forward is to involve people. And we
cannot do that just by the few hours that Austin can spend on
this - as a group we need to reach out to the people we know, we
need to spark discussions and see where they go. That is only
possible if we invest time into it. If we do not depend just on
the single person who was in charge. Also, I hope that Jon and
Austin can be more direct in describing what still has to happen,
and who needs to do what. And are you not able to make a
committed time commitment? Sure, that can happen and I will not
see you any less for it - but please tell us as soon as you
realize it so that other people can help out.
Best regards,
Lodewijk
_______________________________________________
Movementroles mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/movementroles
_______________________________________________
Movementroles mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/movementroles
_______________________________________________
Movementroles mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/movementroles
--
Barry Newstead
Chief Global Development Officer
Wikimedia Foundation
Tel: +1-415-839-6885 x. 6634
Skype: barry.wikimedia
Twitter: @bazanews
Bishakha Datta
2011-03-01 06:38:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lodewijk
Hi Jon,
I was hoping first for a little more input on my email from members of
this group before I continue. It is quite relevant whether we want to drop
the discussions and move to a draft or first have an (extra) attempt to
actually involve and make aware the group. If we choose for the first, I see
no relevance for me to spend time on this.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm expecting that there'll be some good and diverse
feedback on New Models once it's out - because people are interested in it,
and it has a fair amount of detail - so it is easier to react to, in that
sense.The internal-l discussion on flow of money does dovetail with MR to
some extent too, not all.

While I too personally prefer to have much more feedback from others etc
before embarking on the charter, circulating the table of contents + key
questions in each section seems fine to me (unless I am missing something
and much more is planned).

Building on all this, I think we should seriously focus our energies on how
to get maximum and concrete feedback from chapter reps in Berlin - and craft
the MR session/s at the Chapters Conference accordingly.

Best
Bishakha
Delphine Ménard
2011-03-01 07:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bishakha Datta
Post by Lodewijk
Hi Jon,
I was hoping first for a little more input on my email from members of
this group before I continue. It is quite relevant whether we want to drop
the discussions and move to a draft or first have an (extra) attempt to
actually involve and make aware the group. If we choose for the first, I see
no relevance for me to spend time on this.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm expecting that there'll be some good and diverse
feedback on New Models once it's out - because people are interested in it,
and it has a fair amount of detail - so it is easier to react to, in that
sense.The internal-l discussion on flow of money does dovetail with MR to
some extent too, not all.
While I too personally prefer to have much more feedback from others etc
before embarking on the charter, circulating the table of contents + key
questions in each section seems fine to me (unless I am missing something
and much more is planned).
Building on all this, I think we should seriously focus our energies on how
to get maximum and concrete feedback from chapter reps in Berlin - and craft
the MR session/s at the Chapters Conference accordingly.
Would it make sense to ask specifically the chapters to look at the
Movement Roles proposal for Berlin? Something like "how about you tell
us in two sentences what you think of it" (broad, but designed to get
attention maybe?)

Bence, can you think of something?

Delphine
--
@notafish

NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get lost.
Intercultural musings: Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org
Photos with simple eyes: notaphoto - http://photo.notafish.org
Asaf Bartov
2011-03-01 15:50:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Delphine Ménard
Would it make sense to ask specifically the chapters to look at the
Movement Roles proposal for Berlin? Something like "how about you tell
us in two sentences what you think of it" (broad, but designed to get
attention maybe?)
I think it makes sense to ask the chapter representative to please take time
to read the proposal *before* arriving in Berlin, and ideally to try and
collect some feedback from their respective chapter boards.

A.
--
Asaf Bartov <asaf.bartov-***@public.gmane.org>
Bishakha Datta
2011-03-17 05:39:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Asaf Bartov
Post by Delphine Ménard
Would it make sense to ask specifically the chapters to look at the
Movement Roles proposal for Berlin? Something like "how about you tell
us in two sentences what you think of it" (broad, but designed to get
attention maybe?)
I think it makes sense to ask the chapter representative to please take
time to read the proposal *before* arriving in Berlin, and ideally to try
and collect some feedback from their respective chapter boards.
Just a quick one - does a reminder need to be sent to chapter
representatives about this? I think it's a good idea for us to really push
all possible approaches to get feedback.

Bishakha

Jon Huggett
2011-03-01 08:44:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bishakha

We do need to think about how to get maximum and concrete feedback from chapter reps in Berlin. I've put this on the draft agenda for our next IRC chat on Friday. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/Working_group_meeting_2011-3-4

Cheers

Jon
Jon Huggett
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Post by Lodewijk
Hi Jon,
I was hoping first for a little more input on my email from members of this group before I continue. It is quite relevant whether we want to drop the discussions and move to a draft or first have an (extra) attempt to actually involve and make aware the group. If we choose for the first, I see no relevance for me to spend time on this.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm expecting that there'll be some good and diverse feedback on New Models once it's out - because people are interested in it, and it has a fair amount of detail - so it is easier to react to, in that sense.The internal-l discussion on flow of money does dovetail with MR to some extent too, not all.
While I too personally prefer to have much more feedback from others etc before embarking on the charter, circulating the table of contents + key questions in each section seems fine to me (unless I am missing something and much more is planned).
Building on all this, I think we should seriously focus our energies on how to get maximum and concrete feedback from chapter reps in Berlin - and craft the MR session/s at the Chapters Conference accordingly.
Best
Bishakha
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Arne Klempert
2011-02-28 00:24:00 UTC
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Hey Lodewijk,

thanks for your email. Unfortunatley I was not able to attend the IRC
session on Friday, so I couldn't react to your arguments. It's correct
that Jon and I had a brief conversation, and we talked about giving
the charter draft a higher priority, to have at least something that
we can share in Berlin.

IMO this does not mean that we have to drop everything else, and it
also does not mean that we're writing a final charter now. But we need
some draft, so that people get an idea of how this charter could look
like. You and me seem to have this understanding already, but I doubt
that this is the case for the people outside of this group. We need to
show them at least a Table of contents - some sections might already
be filled with draft text, some just with questions, or notes of
disagreement, or references to future discussions.

Does that make sense?

Arne
Post by Lodewijk
Dear all,
I apologize on beforehand if I come across rude and insensitive in this
email. I do however feel the need to be super clear about this important
topic and do not want to fuzzify that with cuddling words.
I am very sorry to realize that since Frankfurt, we have not been able to
hang on to our optimistic agenda setting. We planned summer 2010 for an
inclusive process, involving people and allowing for input with a gradual
process. Unfortunately, for many reasons that are not helpful to discuss,
there was no real involvement until Frankfurt from the chapters or real life
community outside the working group to think about what this movement should
be shaped like.
After Frankfurt, people had unexpected time commitment issues, which can't
really be helped. It took somewhat longer to get the matrix out, and as
expected (considering the complexity) there was not a huge amount of
feedback. Now also the New Models email has been delayed.
In todays irc meeting with 4 participants from this mailing list it was
apparently decided that things are not going well and that we should leave
the agreed path. Jon apparently had a discussion with Arne, and I understand
that the path forward now would be to start writing a draft of a charter and
publish that next week. I would like to take this opportunity to explain why
I think that is the wrong way to go - because clearly I did not come across
in the IRC meeting. If everybody feels this is the way to go I will submit
to that of course.
The charter is our final goal - a piece of text that every single
organization in our movement can and will agree upon. This is a task that
should not be taken lightly and for granted - this will be very very hard.
It will be possible to make compromizes up to 50 or 75% of the organizations
to agree, but to have such a vast supermajority requires more. My feeling is
and has always been that people need to feel owner of the problem to be able
to allow solutions to become effective. They need to understand what we try
to fix before they can accept that the situation might have to change.
Otherwise we will not get further than describing the status quo. And I
think at least in Frankfurt we all agreed that would not be a Good Thing.
To have people feel owner of the problem, they need to be actively involved
in discussions. This is what currently is not happening. We agreed on a time
path with several emails to be sent out with respect to tough topics - this
would have made people aware of the needs, and perhaps involved them in the
discussion. Skipping this step now and just start drafting in our corner (or
even on meta) means that we could just as well not have had a process at all
- because it would basically be exactly where we were in August 2009 in
Buenos Aires - a bunch of people came up with a draft. The only difference
would be that we spent this time a lot of effort in setting up a good
process - which we then ignored.
Such a draft can be received in a few ways. It can be plainly ignored by
most organizations because they don't see the importance or relevance to
their situation. When it gets serious about signing, these people will
finally wake up and see all the problems and bureaucracy it will cause - and
they don't feel owner. Therefore they will not object to voting against it
and therefore making it a failure. Another option is that people will
protest on all the details that they don't like. You probably have seen
enough discussions on foundation-l to imagine such a situation. After all,
it is an external document, that is being put forward. They don't feel the
need for it, they don't see the issues. And a final option is that things
will just remain descriptive of the status quo. Then we will have to have
these exact discussions which we set up this process and working group for,
for fundraising (Barry is already doing that even) and other topics which
are not clearly defined.
In my opinion the only way forward is to involve people. And we cannot do
that just by the few hours that Austin can spend on this - as a group we
need to reach out to the people we know, we need to spark discussions and
see where they go. That is only possible if we invest time into it. If we do
not depend just on the single person who was in charge. Also, I hope that
Jon and Austin can be more direct in describing what still has to happen,
and who needs to do what. And are you not able to make a committed time
commitment? Sure, that can happen and I will not see you any less for it -
but please tell us as soon as you realize it so that other people can help
out.
Best regards,
Lodewijk
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